One-shot kill protection for the head location has been around for as long as I can remember. It keeps 'mechs from being completely wiped out of game play by decapitation by giving the pilot a "second chance" to live. All armor and internal structure is removed and maybe some systems are damaged, but the 'mech isn't a mission kill.

In CBT, a Clan ERPPC, any standard and heavy gauss rifle, heavy large lasers, and any class-20 ACs would blow the head clean right off. However the chances of having the head blown away are 2.778%, which are pretty small.

The one-shot kill protection kills any chance of a lethal head hit. Sure we might have head strikes (be it intentional or accidental) that can damage the HUD, but an outright kill would be more rewarding for those gunning for the head.

Should it be kept? Will it be kept?

Let's discuss!

i never liked one shot kill protection for the head. althoug i have to admit it saved my "life" quite often. cockpits should get a high DR value instead. withou a high dr and without one shot kill protection the cockpit becomes a too easy target. everyone who ever faced rac2 uac2 or ssrmbboats can confirm that.

however i can live with the one shot kill protection ( damn word btw - can we agree on calling it oskp ?).

I think its better for game balance if you leave it in and suspend disbelief for a while when your playing.

As example A I cite all the one shot kill configs build able in MW3 and the Arrow4 in MW2

Hitting the head is generally hard, the reason being that the hit areas are insanely small and often not where you expect them to be. I don't put armor on my head because of hit protection, and the few times my hud did get blown out was from a lucky shot. Lucky for me that is. Most of the time I'm almost dead when I get hit in the head, so the shot that hit protection soaked up means I still get to live. Kind of dumb, I wouldn't mind seeing it gone.

What about hit protection for the rear? I always thought it wouldn't hurt to remove that as well, since it's basically the same situation as protection for the head. Although if I had to pick, I'd rather have it removed from the rear than the head. getting to the back of your opponent is more dangerous this way and it may give fast mechs and BA a weak spot to go for.

Since the goal of MP4 is to make MW4 Mercs more sim-like, getting rid of the one-shot kill protection from the head would definitely make the game more like a sim. If you get your head blown off, your dead. That's a simulation.

I never aim for the head, I may aim my torso shots in the general area in the hopes of gaining a lucky shot , but i never specifically try to hit it, its just way too small and the one shot protection makes my efforts almost useless.

That would only serve to make the game worse.

How so? You don't believe that those who get a lucky head shot or take careful aim should be rewarded with a sure kill?

Small weapons don't have to kill the head in one shot. I am talking about the real headchoppers -- The large-bore ACs, the PPCs, gauss rifles, you name it. It's not like a missile cluster is going to blow off the head. You would need several.

Couldn't agree more.
Gunning for the head is a waste of time when you could be hammering the torso instead.

The only concern I have about one-shot kills to the head is lasers and other weapons with no travel time. Pilots good enough to consistently land shots with lasers on the cockpit could become a serious issue. But even that concern is probably making a bigger deal out of it than necessary. Right now, I actively avoid hitting cockpits with my alpha strikes - since I know I won' likely get a second headshot in, and without a that finishing shot, the damage I just did to the cockpit would have been better spent on the center torso.

In all honestly, I don't think removal of headshot protection would have a very big effect on the game.

It wouldn't.

I like using lasers a lot, and I like getting cockpit kills even more, so I sometimes take a laserboat, drop onto an empty server on the same team as the bots, and try to learn where the head hit area is located on their mechs. So far I can HS kill an archer on sight - but ONLY if the thing is still or moving very very slowly. When we are both running at top speed it is useless to waste time trying to hit the head. That goes for any mech, except possibly the daishi since it's already slow and its head is huge. In one cityscape game I got 5 or 6 1 hit kills in a row on a daishi by using lbx+csrm. I wasn't aiming for a headshot, so that just goes to show you how big its head is.

Speaking of lbx I wonder how much easier it is to nail the cockpit now that the shots actually scatter.

Wait - LBX rounds scatter? I always thought they just generated some splash damage. Is this a MP4 change?

Uh huh. SO what happens when you remove one hit protect and someone drops a longtom shell in your lap that damages all locations?

Luck should not be rewarded, no.

Nothing.

You can take no armor on your head and even if you get hit square with 2 longtoms it will not come close to taking out the hud.



There is no reward for luck. Luck is always uncontrollable and thus unrewarded. Soon as it stops being uncontrollable it also stops being luck, and starts becoming skill.

I've never seen a long tom, or ANY splash weapon for that matter, damage a cockpit. Not saying it isn't possible, just that I've never noticed it.

You can get an OSK with the addition of a TAG Laser.

If One Shot Kill Protection is removed, some of the mechs may need to have their hitboxes modified as stated earlier. The main ones that come to mind are the Warhawk (Masakari) and Direwolf (Daishi). I rarely armour my head in configs, but these two NEED all the extra head armour they can get (in particular the Warhawk).

Yeah they can damage the HUD but rarely do for some reason. I've lost it on occation from a LT.

Heres my 2 cents, I'd leave the 1 shot in for several reasons:

1: Some folks are very good at taking heads.

2: You already loose your HUD when its blown away and thats a pretty big disadvantage.

3: Its not terribly hard to kill a hudded mech.

4: You can already kill with a single alpha through protected areas provided there are weapons traveling at different speeds. I've been hit in the HUD by lasers and then been killed by trailing SMRM or SSRM missiles from a single alpha more times than I care to count. In addition there are several other one shot kills available currently, we don't need more.

Yah I want the "one-shot" protection on the cockpit removed. It's just crazy that a cockpit could sustain TONS of damage and the pilot inside it is able to get another chance.

Although the heads should be of standard size just to make everything balanced. Although i'm not sure if there are mechs with bigger cockpits.

I'm not sure removing the protection is the best choice. Some 'mechs rely on the protection (Daishi, Mad Cat, basically any 'mech with a huge cockpit window), and removing it makes them more prone to just dying in one shot, thus making them much less worthwhile to use. Adding insta-gibs in a game as slow as MW4 seems out of place.

Perhaps players piloting those 'mechs should mount more armor on the head to prevent that from happening

With the new armor types coming out, adding hardened armor to the head should be good protection.

I've never seen anyone who could HS anything at will. I remember some fenris with machineguns and csrms getting my novacats hud a few times, but it took a quite a few shots on its part, and I don't use head armor in the first place. It wouldn't have mattered if I did not have hit protection in this case anyway, since those weapons do very low damage but recycle quickly.



That's true.



You might as well be dead if that's the case. It would be no different if hit protection existed or not.



Yes that's how I killed those daishis on cityscape. I don't see how that's a point against the removal of hit protection, you would be dead when the laser************ you as opposed to a split second later when the missles landed. In fact if one hit protection were to be removed people would be more likely to armor their cockpit and instead of dieing they would live through things like this, albeit with a messed up hud.

The only ways I know of for getting a one hit kill are through the side torsos and legs. It may be possible to get them through the head or rear torso but I haven't tried that. You need lots of damage for that to occur though (I used a 144 alpha to test the side torsos and legs) so you won't see any happening in your average game.



Mechs don't rely on hit protection, players do - the daishi has the abiity to mount lots of armor on its head for a reason. Assault mechs dieing fast when getting hit in the head is an illusion because few people bother to armor that area. Fully protecting the cockpit makes damaging it much more difficult unless you use big guns, kind of like how BMIIC says it works in btech. Don't forget we now have hardened armor and a DR value to get through in MP4.

Giving a headshot ability wouldn't degrade the game. It would give you a new area to aim for instead of just shoot the torso, and make customizing mechs that much more interesting, since head armor becomes a little more useful.

+1

I'm going to argue to keep it one of the reasons being in CBT, if you get hit in the head, there is a dice roll for pilot damage, and then a pilot blackout if the pilot does not take more than like 3 damage. the other is probably half the people who want it gone will probably be the first wanting it back right after a rail gun, AC20, or Arrow/Arty blows their head off the first time. And the one hit guard is gone with the first bit of damage you take isn't it?

If it's even possible, I'd be in favor of nixing the one-hit-kill protection. I mean seriously, if you hit something hard enough that it should die, then it should be dead. OHKO protection is completely without grounds. If you want to avoid getting your head blown off, put some more armor up in your noggin. Risky armor configurations should be punished with, surprise, risk. The same thing goes for legs and rear armor. If you don't armor those then you're asking to get your tail blown to kingdom come.

what about a middle ground solution, Leave it in but reduce the protection to some degree where osk is more common but not such a degree to where there is scalping parties. [Though it would be fun, then it would get old]. I think by reducing the protection a skilled sniper will get their reward , but dont turn it off and make it too easy for green pilots. Unless this option is like a light switch where it is eigther on or off.

I shoot for heads on select mechs and I have messed a few huds up. I believe in the 10+ years I might have a total of ~100 head shot kills. With the protection on I just target parts of the mech , where you put weapons and my Seraphin side your legs.

+1

Kodi, how exactly do you propose having "partial OHKP"? Having something above a certain damage kill?

Besides, OHKP is slightly (but not completely) redundant anyways, by using weapons with different travel times (LBX & SSRM). By using something with slightly less damage, you can one-hit someone? Is that a good thing?

Remember MW3 your view screen got pepper with rounds , but if a large caliber hit you died.....is there a way to borrow that code?
meds and lower damage the C-pit where the large and assault class have a better chance of a oshk...I dont know if that makes much sense...

the "partial' thing was what i was thinking as well...

damaging the cockpit shouldn't mess up your HUD. only hitting it hard enough should. so, we should come up with some sort of a step, and see if the damage dealt is over the treshold; if it is - your head is blown apart. if not - your armor is just chipped. coring the head should also kill the mech, so that you have a chance to kill those fat DR armor tanks with 300pts of DR/Hard armor on the CT

if somebody pulls off a lucky shot - great, i'm dead but he won't pull it off again any time soon. if somebody has the skill to constantly nail you in the head - great, more power to him, he should have an easier time killing mechs now.

Is the development team actually considering this?

I don't know how often people go for headshots, but i'm pretty sure they happen rarely and happens in unexpected moments. Also, I never go for a headshot, especially if there is/are other panels that are killable.

The only time I go for a headshot is if i'm already 1 more shot of getting destroyed and the enemy is still fresh but has a blinking head. And this scenario rarely happens.

I doubt that my targetting priorities would change even if the 1-shot protection is removed (ie. I'd still go for the easier shot).

Lastly, can headshot occur in other angles? If not, then a defensive move could easily avoid getting shot in the head.

it's been considered way before you guys thought of it

I'm fairly certain that in the present system you can only occur HUD destruction if the head does, in fact, take enough damage. Few people actually armor the head, so when it gets attacked it often ends up damaging the HUD because you've worked through the armor and into the internals. That's not quite the "only lose your HUD if it's a hard hit" approach, though, it's more of a "taken sufficient damage" approach. Only way I can figure you'd tie the strength of the hit to HUD demise is by linking it with how much the torso gets knocked around.

If you can put enough armor to prevent the vast majority of weapons from One shotting it, then I dont see why not. also mechs with larger cocpit hitboxes need to either be able to mount more armor, or make them smaller, someone suggested you make them all an equal size, that way its fair and balanced, i really like this idea. also it would give those with smaller weapons a target when fighting against someone wtih a high DR factor. But most important of all, I see this rewarding those who armor their cocpits, and punishing those who don't.

When you get hud shot, you get crippled already with no zoom and no electronics. You already get punished.

I did often on a few select chassis in mp3 FFA, but it had more to do with me having all the time in the world to aim because the other guy would be slowly walking straight at me to come into range of his weapons + MP3 Encouraged me to drop lead weapons in favor of instant hit pulse lasers to shoot around certain special sections and hit small ct's in HOLA.

you all are assuming the head get hit with one gun, or a laser or some such. But we all know that most mechs above medium carry enough firepower that regardless of how much armor you put on the heads that they will blow straight through it.

And what I suppose happens when you use targeting comp and that autofire device and set it for "head" I wonder...

Fire Control fires randomly at a mech, so no chance of of a legal aimbot.


But you have a point, the cockpit armour is very thin and one shot by a gauss alone should be enough to damage it.

IMO, this'll be a prime spot for hardened armour.

Its just a bad idea to begin with. Lucky shots to the HUD are already enough to cripple an enemy. What we don't need is battles being decided by a lucky shot to the cockpit that instantly kills the other guy.

I know you guys are all for realism that's wonderful if you're into that sort of game. Why stop there? Why not force everyone to play one life no respawn games? After all, respawning is unrealistic.

See, its not just about realism, its also about gameplay.

I definitely lean more towards keeping one-shot protection for the HUD in the game - as previously stated, cockpit armour is paper-thin anyway. Also, considering the addition of a lot of new electronics in MP4, taking a HUD hit could be pretty crippling in the sense that all that tonnage spent has just gotten blown away. It's not exactly easy to shield the HUD, either - like Magnus notes, lucky shot scenarios do occur.
I'd be more partial to removing or reducing one-shot protection from the rear armour - getting behind an enemy mech takes a degree more intentionality and more risk, and can be defended against to a greater extent by watching your back, teamwork, and the like.

I concur

What about an option to turn off one hit protection? that way you could have it as real as you want, or as fun as you want?

like for the server side?

I don't understand what you're fretting about, HS's hardly ever occur. Some people have trouble even hitting a mech in the CT consistently, much less make a headshot, and trying to hit the cockpit on anything less than 70 tons becomes for all practical purposes impossible in your average game. If you're really worried about luck (which you shouldn't be, luck is not only always in all games, it's in your real life) there is hardened armor:

Lets take the daishi as an example *opens mechlab*. It can mount 27 points on its head, now lets say that we filled up those 27 points with hardened.

That would be 27 + (33% damage resistance against all weapons). Now what's that DR value...27/10 = 2.7

So lets say mr. thor comes along with 2 gauss and erll and manages to get a lucky shot on our daishis head. The total damage would be:

(18-2.7)*67% + (18-2.7)*67% + (7.5-2.7)*67% = 23.72 The remaining armor is (27-23.72) = 3.28 Lets not forget that once the head armor is gone you still need another 5-10 points to kill the hud, which means that you can take about 9.28 more damage before you notice anything wrong. Also that 2.7 DR means that any weapon that does less than 2.7 damage per shot is not going to hurt you unless it uses armor piercing ammo. Just for kicks lets see what happens if you bring reactive armor instead:

27 + (%50 damage resistance against ballistics). DR value is 27 / (20 - 0.5) = 1.38

Damage is (18-1.38)*50% + (18-1.38)*50% + (7.5 - 1.38) = 22.74 Remaining armor is (27-22.74) = 4.26, a similar result.

What are the chances of mr. thor getting another lucky hit on the head to finish the daishi off? What are the chances of even getting a HS in the first place. Still concerned about HS's making the game less enjoyable? Think about this scenario: You're brawling and almost dead and facing someone else who's almost dead. Soon as the guy rounds the corner you shoot him down before he's able to (the skillz), and think its over - but wait you nailed his head, that hit protection just soaked up your whole alpha. He aims, fires, you die and lose the match. A lucky shot to the cockpit decided the outcome.

Unlucky shot by the one who shot the head. Happened to me and opponents alike, not that many times, but is also luck on my and their part (depending who's got shot in the head).

It was sure lucky for your opponent though

Or unlucky if it was an 80pt Alpha aimed at a weakened CT.

stop acting/whining like AGGRESSOR about something that not only you haven't seen, but also something that's not even done yet.
if we can make it - wel'll make it. and then it's up to the betas to decide if it's gonna stay in or not.

Nothing to be mad about, I just corrected you statement. We're actually saying the same thing.